Quebec possibly banning gas powered sleds by 2035

[zeusand]

http://www.supertraxmag.com/features/banning-gas-powered-sleds/n4073

[quebec bob]

Will never happen in that time frame with anything less than a miracle, probably true for cars too. The entire trail network will close down and so will all the outfitters in the bush, this equals big resistance and a lot of politicians will be voted out. Remember a politician is making these politically correct statements...not an engineer or a manufacturer, they promise the world when campaigning and never deliver a fraction of what they promise.

[iceman]

41 minutes ago, zeusand said:

http://www.supertraxmag.com/features/banning-gas-powered-sleds/n4073

Don’t hold your breath waiting for this to happen.

[Cnc]

I am pretty sure it will be a long way off for electric only sleds. First off the original announcement specified the ban will be new car sales, this does not address existing gas cars on the road at that time which probably will take years to eliminate. It also does not ban vehicles from out of province that run on gas so I don’t see a sudden drop in the number of gas stations come 2035. There also is a long way to go in improving battery life/ mileage per charge before off road vehicles or even motorcycles become practical. I just read a report by a guy testing out the new Harley live wire. He borrowed the bike from Harley for a 500 mile shake down cruise. While the estimated range for battery life was 180 miles, throw in speed head winds and hilly mountainous roads he was averaging 80 miles before needing to recharge and actually ran out of juice once a few miles before the next recharging station. He experienced waiting for a unoccupied charging station, sitting on the curb cooling his heels waiting for the bike to charge at others and the frustration of getting nowhere fast with all the stops. His round trip of 500 miles took him 31and a bit hrs and he commented that broken down he averaged 16 miles per hr fog the trip. Imagine doing that on a sled?, are they putting charging stations on trees? IMO a lot to iron out to be practical for off road vehicles so by the time it really effects snowmobiling many of us won’t be riding anymore.

 

[zeusand]

Maybe by then they will improve Battery Technology to the point where the sled will get 200 miles without a recharge with the seat heater, heated grips, helmet plugged in, GPS ETC...w/ high beam on LOL.

[Cnc]

39 minutes ago, zeusand said:

Maybe by then they will improve Battery Technology to the point where the sled will get 200 miles without a recharge with the seat heater, heated grips, helmet plugged in, GPS ETC...w/ high beam on LOL.

Yes and they will need to overcome the drop in battery performance due to the cold.

 It was pointed out to me that car manufacturers can always find room for places to stuff  more batteries and increase the bank size and range with in reason, but on a motorcycle or snowmobile the amount of space for larger battery banks will be more restricted. 

[quebec bob]

My friend bought a 125k Tesla, left the Berkshires on a cold winter day to go see the Bruins in Boston, battery needed charging just past Worcester, charging station was full with cars waiting, had to rent a car to get there, he is not very happy!!

[dooright]

Iceman ! 

[scorpionbowl]

This is just another crazy politician looking to move up the hierarchy. This and self-driving cars are 30 years away, anyway...

Edited December 11, 2020 by scorpionbowl

[iceman]

24 minutes ago, dooright said:

Iceman ! 

You been Ice’d. 

Stickin it to them. LOL. 

 

 

[iceman]

Here you go

can go 100km then needs charging.

20 minutes to charge at a rapid charging station, 225 of these in Quebec (none on trail)

2 hours to charge at a standard charging station 1800 in Quebec (none on trail)

10 hours to charge with a 120 volt outlet. 

Starts at 20k plus tax cdn

[quebec bob]

Were are @%^&#$!! you know how much more fossil fuel we are going to need to burn to power up everything they want to be electric, now would be a good time to get into the electrical wiring business, going to need and infrastructure 25 times bigger than what we currently have....your great grand kids might see it.

[iceman]

8 minutes ago, quebec bob said:

Were are @%^&#$!! you know how much more fossil fuel we are going to need to burn to power up everything they want to be electric, now would be a good time to get into the electrical wiring business, going to need and infrastructure 25 times bigger than what we currently have....your great grand kids might see it.

No problem, We can just build more rivers for more Hydro power. 

[Signfan]

Agree with the policy or not should we not try and get there?  My kids want to snowmobile when they grow up.  Hell I want to still ride in 25 years time.  Already seeing many areas that used to get reliable snow now seeing more rain than snow on a regular basis each winter.  Look at the changes in technology we've seen in the last 15 years.  Is it a pretty steep goal and maybe not realistic?  Probably.  Can we be close by 2035.  Yes we probably can.  

[Gullyrider]

On 12/10/2020 at 7:25 PM, scorpionbowl said:

This is just another crazy politician looking to move up the hierarchy. This and self-driving cars are 30 years away, anyway...

Exactly.  Look at the famous "stud ban" ... or even that deadline for two-strokes (now passed ...).  It's just fluff.

[PLAYHARD]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:52 PM, Cnc said:

There also is a long way to go in improving battery life/ mileage per charge before off road vehicles or even motorcycles become practical

 

Yep...

The three critical barriers to widespread replacement of fossil fuels with electricity haven't changed in the last decade and frankly there hasn't been much progress on any of them.
They are:
1. Range
2. Time to recharge
3. Availability of recharge retailers

 

A recent news story in Canada has Francois Legault, Premier of the province of Quebec (for our US readers, that's similar to a state Governor), posturing to ban the sale of internal combustion engine powered on-road vehicles by 2035.

His rationale is the same as every other blinkered politician: Save the environment. To the Premier's credit, Quebec is rich in low environmental impact hydro-generated electricity.

Of course, this has to be framed with the reality that the incredible amount of land mass flooded many decades ago to provide a reservoir for waterfall turbines to generate said power, created what would today be considered an environmental apocalypse. Oops, can't do anything about that now.

I digress. Consider the fall-out from such a drastic, unwise move. First off, the reason electric cars are selling in higher ratios in Quebec compared to other Canadian jurisdictions is the abundant government subsidies (rebates) buyers receive, both provincially and federally.

These subsidies, if they remain in place, are monetarily unsustainable when you extrapolate their cost over the total Quebec auto market – not just a few percent of the market.

In the meantime the money your neighbor received toward the purchase of the Tesla in his garage came from the taxes on your purchase of fossil fuels for the internal combustion engine propelling your car.

Here's where I want to touch on how this kind of move by government can have a cascading, detrimental impact on many other industries, not the least of which is the powersport and snowmobile tourism biz.

It's no secret the number of gasoline retail outlets in pretty much every jurisdiction across North America is shrinking. In urban areas this isn't a problem but in the rural and isolated places we ride our sleds, it is already a problem.

With an impending ban on gas powered on-road vehicles you can bet the number of gasoline retailers will shrink rapidly in Quebec, particularly in rural markets.

Yes, there will be an aging fleet of gas-powered vehicles for at least a dozen years after the ban, however, the trend will be to reduce fuel distribution and increase electric re-charge locations.

I need to say this about the ever-increasing predisposition of politicians to get ahead of themselves when it comes to electric transportation.

The three critical barriers to widespread replacement of fossil fuels with electricity haven't changed in the last decade and frankly there hasn't been much progress on any of them.

They are:

1. Range
2. Time to recharge
3. Availability of recharge retailers

For the record, we think the team at Taiga have been completely realistic with the development and targeted use of its new electric snowmobile models. Taiga is up front with its assertion its sleds are a better idea when it comes to rental fleets in places like West Yellowstone.

Snowmobile rental units are used on a completely predictable daily route by rental operators. Even mountain sled rental riders would be able to spend a day on a deep snow Taiga and have enough power to get home.

What isn't about to happen in our sport until progress is made with the aforementioned three barriers (all three, not just two or one), is widespread consumer acceptance of electric powered sleds.

In the automotive world there are more than a few disillusioned electric car owners who have discovered they simply cannot get "there and back" without a hugely time consuming "fill up" with electricity. With an on-road electric vehicle the consequences of "running out" are relatively simple - get a tow to a charging station. With an off-road vehicle? Big trouble.

For snowmobilers and pretty much all powersport enthusiasts who don't see themselves buying an electric powered off-road vehicle, Quebec's move to all electric powered cars will create havoc.

With an inevitable reduction of gasoline retailers as a result of the sale of only electric cars, powersport enthusiasts will be stuck with carrying copious amounts of fuel when they ride in Quebec.

For the record, there's no way a charging infrastructure supporting remote locations where off-road activity occurs year round, would be monetarily practical.

The cost for Level 3 charging stations capable of recharging an electric snowmobile to 80 percent in approximately 45 minutes (this is the fastest system available for electric powered vehicles) is huge.

Consider if just 5-percent of the sleds on trails in Quebec were electric powered. What would a local pit stop for lunch look like when six, eight or ten electric sleds needed charging to get home?

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying here; I am in no way against electric powered snowmobiles. I think the integration of the current technology Taiga is pioneering and at the forefront of developing makes perfect sense. Ski-hill maintenance sleds, rental fleets and commercial operators like pole line and pipeline companies would all benefit from electric powered sleds.

If the big three detractors to electric powered off-road vehicles can be eliminated in the next ten years, then integration, not legislation of these vehicles into the market can provide an interesting alternative to current internal combustion powered sleds, ATVs, SxS and dirt bikes.

However, as it sits right now there's a ton of work necessary to take electric power to the consumer off-road marketplace.

[PLAYHARD]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:25 PM, quebec bob said:

just past Worcester, charging station was full with cars waiting,

So much for splash-n-dash snickers-n-redbull lunch, better get to the plug-in before the poutine/bier crowd!

[PLAYHARD]

On 12/11/2020 at 7:46 PM, quebec bob said:

how much more fossil fuel we are going to need to burn to power up everything they want to be electric

Nah!  Just need to flood out more innocent rural communities!...

His rationale is the same as every other blinkered politician: Save the environment. To the Premier's credit, Quebec is rich in low environmental impact hydro-generated electricity.

Of course, this has to be framed with the reality that the incredible amount of land mass flooded many decades ago to provide a reservoir for waterfall turbines to generate said power, created what would today be considered an environmental apocalypse. Oops, can't do anything about that now.

I digress.

[PLAYHARD]

On 12/14/2020 at 8:38 PM, Gullyrider said:

or even that deadline for two-strokes (now passed ...)

Gotta admit, that craziness led to cleaner tech?

[Cnc]

5 hours ago, PLAYHARD said:

 

Yep...

The three critical barriers to widespread replacement of fossil fuels with electricity haven't changed in the last decade and frankly there hasn't been much progress on any of them.
They are:
1. Range
2. Time to recharge
3. Availability of recharge retailers

 

A recent news story in Canada has Francois Legault, Premier of the province of Quebec (for our US readers, that's similar to a state Governor), posturing to ban the sale of internal combustion engine powered on-road vehicles by 2035.

His rationale is the same as every other blinkered politician: Save the environment. To the Premier's credit, Quebec is rich in low environmental impact hydro-generated electricity.

Of course, this has to be framed with the reality that the incredible amount of land mass flooded many decades ago to provide a reservoir for waterfall turbines to generate said power, created what would today be considered an environmental apocalypse. Oops, can't do anything about that now.

I digress. Consider the fall-out from such a drastic, unwise move. First off, the reason electric cars are selling in higher ratios in Quebec compared to other Canadian jurisdictions is the abundant government subsidies (rebates) buyers receive, both provincially and federally.

These subsidies, if they remain in place, are monetarily unsustainable when you extrapolate their cost over the total Quebec auto market – not just a few percent of the market.

In the meantime the money your neighbor received toward the purchase of the Tesla in his garage came from the taxes on your purchase of fossil fuels for the internal combustion engine propelling your car.

Here's where I want to touch on how this kind of move by government can have a cascading, detrimental impact on many other industries, not the least of which is the powersport and snowmobile tourism biz.

It's no secret the number of gasoline retail outlets in pretty much every jurisdiction across North America is shrinking. In urban areas this isn't a problem but in the rural and isolated places we ride our sleds, it is already a problem.

With an impending ban on gas powered on-road vehicles you can bet the number of gasoline retailers will shrink rapidly in Quebec, particularly in rural markets.

Yes, there will be an aging fleet of gas-powered vehicles for at least a dozen years after the ban, however, the trend will be to reduce fuel distribution and increase electric re-charge locations.

I need to say this about the ever-increasing predisposition of politicians to get ahead of themselves when it comes to electric transportation.

The three critical barriers to widespread replacement of fossil fuels with electricity haven't changed in the last decade and frankly there hasn't been much progress on any of them.

They are:

1. Range
2. Time to recharge
3. Availability of recharge retailers

For the record, we think the team at Taiga have been completely realistic with the development and targeted use of its new electric snowmobile models. Taiga is up front with its assertion its sleds are a better idea when it comes to rental fleets in places like West Yellowstone.

Snowmobile rental units are used on a completely predictable daily route by rental operators. Even mountain sled rental riders would be able to spend a day on a deep snow Taiga and have enough power to get home.

What isn't about to happen in our sport until progress is made with the aforementioned three barriers (all three, not just two or one), is widespread consumer acceptance of electric powered sleds.

In the automotive world there are more than a few disillusioned electric car owners who have discovered they simply cannot get "there and back" without a hugely time consuming "fill up" with electricity. With an on-road electric vehicle the consequences of "running out" are relatively simple - get a tow to a charging station. With an off-road vehicle? Big trouble.

For snowmobilers and pretty much all powersport enthusiasts who don't see themselves buying an electric powered off-road vehicle, Quebec's move to all electric powered cars will create havoc.

With an inevitable reduction of gasoline retailers as a result of the sale of only electric cars, powersport enthusiasts will be stuck with carrying copious amounts of fuel when they ride in Quebec.

For the record, there's no way a charging infrastructure supporting remote locations where off-road activity occurs year round, would be monetarily practical.

The cost for Level 3 charging stations capable of recharging an electric snowmobile to 80 percent in approximately 45 minutes (this is the fastest system available for electric powered vehicles) is huge.

Consider if just 5-percent of the sleds on trails in Quebec were electric powered. What would a local pit stop for lunch look like when six, eight or ten electric sleds needed charging to get home?

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying here; I am in no way against electric powered snowmobiles. I think the integration of the current technology Taiga is pioneering and at the forefront of developing makes perfect sense. Ski-hill maintenance sleds, rental fleets and commercial operators like pole line and pipeline companies would all benefit from electric powered sleds.

If the big three detractors to electric powered off-road vehicles can be eliminated in the next ten years, then integration, not legislation of these vehicles into the market can provide an interesting alternative to current internal combustion powered sleds, ATVs, SxS and dirt bikes.

However, as it sits right now there's a ton of work necessary to take electric power to the consumer off-road marketplace.

Yeah when they figure out an electric powered generator for when the hydro goes out as it does on a regular bases in my neck of Quebec, they will have discovered the age old quest for propetual motion.😁

[Gullyrider]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:39 AM, PLAYHARD said:

Gotta admit, that craziness led to cleaner tech?

You're probably right ... I forget when the Québec two-stroke ban was announced or when the provincial government was convinced to rescind the threat as the result of the development of cleaner two strokes.  I think the U.S. EPA requirements probably had more to do with that development than the Québec legislation, but it all helped.  It's a long way from cleaner two-strokes to 100% electrification though.

[Signfan]

I think the batteries need to make one more big jump.  If they can get down to 80% charges in 15 min on a fast charger and a range of 200 km on an 80% charge in normal trail riding conditions while not being stupid heavy this can work.  The infrastructure will follow.  There's more of a charging network built already than most think.  Yes not in every remote location and tiny village, but most towns have one or more options right now.  If the cars are converted the demand will create a situation where folks will build the infrastructure.  Look at what it costs to install a set of gas pumps.  You can build some pretty fancy electric chargers for similar or less coin.  You avoid ongoing trucking costs we have with fuel and the cost for energy is actually cheaper.  Especially in Quebec where the hydro rates are low.

[actionjack]

I'm not gonna read all the posts I'm just gonna slap and move on.  Reality (free market enterprise) killed the electric car.  Now that reality has been suspended, untold numbers of people are willing to tail off one environmental impact for a MUCH worse one - mostly electric infrastructure.  Renewables (absent cold fusion) will never surpass fossil fuels.  There is more than enough fossil fuel to burn clean enough to least us until at least the next 2 extinction events.  All electric or even hydrogen power will double greenhouse gas emissions and come along with the environment impacts of mining and disposing of the additional heavy metals needed.  The world should be looking at tech to make using fossil fuels cleaner and increase efficiency and be building nuclear.   Otherwise only look to California to see what the future will hold with electric rationing due to idiotic renewable %s mandates.  Common sense always takes too long to prevail after upheaval.  The next asteroid will take care of the rest (maybe a CME or EMP).  Would make for a Dark Winter.

[PLAYHARD]

5 hours ago, actionjack said:

Common sense...

My favorite oxymoron!

Touche'

The only downside on the Yammi flip from 2-smoke to 4, is that now I gotta hang up my jacket & bib at the end of the day, where they used to stand up themselves after riding in a pack of old sparkplug foulers!

[actionjack]

3 hours ago, PLAYHARD said:

My favorite oxymoron!

Touche'

The only downside on the Yammi flip from 2-smoke to 4, is that now I gotta hang up my jacket & bib at the end of the day, where they used to stand up themselves after riding in a pack of old sparkplug foulers!

I gonna say I absolutely love my Sidewinder as I did and do my Apex and Attak that I still own.  The Winder is a sexy beast, a rocket, but there is no denying she is heavy and I may be getting a Riot or a Backcountry.

And yes, sense is anything but common these days.