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SkippyDoo

To off trail riders who can’t stay on the trail

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unfortunately we have two different sports going on here .trail riders and off trail riders .it is becoming a big problem for trail riders in the states as well .i don't know if fcmq  supports off trail or not .if not it is time to fine off trail riders on private property.trails are defiantly disappearing in north east because of it.

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There is off trail opportunities in Quebec. Also the off trail segment of snowmobiling is growing fast. I have no issues with any of that. The problem is it attracts younger riders who can’t control themselves and venture off trail where they shouldn’t. The other problem is these high horsepower machines with 3” paddles destroy a groomed trail in a hurry. Mont Valin, the area that sold me on riding in Quebec many years ago is becoming unrideable to regular trail sleds due to the off trail sleds and the increase in localized traffic on Valin that off trail riding created. Whatever. To each their own. I’ll stay off Valin. But when they take our regular trails away because they ride like idiots trying to get to their off trail spots, it pisses me off. 

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Yep pathetic, I don't blame the guy a bit for closing his land. You can't fix stupid and signs that say stay on trail or stay home and barrier tape put up that people ride around WTF ! We are our own worst enemy sometimes "we" being the few not the majority.

Edited by Pipeman

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To the authorities that sell the passes.  Please help the land owners, the trail riders and the off trail riders.  This is a big ongoing problem.

I know there are areas that off trail is acceptable.  It is my understanding that Zec areas are OK.  I don't know if all Zecs are OK for off trail or only certain ones.  I have never seen any info informing the off trail riders other than a few words in a post.  Education is invaluable.

Why can't a brochure be handed out with all trail passes showing where off trail is OK.  Reinforce the fact that all other areas sled operators are to stay on the designated trail.  Even when turning around.  Charge us an extra $1.00 or 2.00 if that is what it costs to print the brochure.  Lets not let a lack of knowledge be detrimental to the sport.

We appreciate the land owners for giving permission and thank the volunteers that maintain the trail system.  It is an incredible effort that goes into making this sport what it is.  Lets show the land owners that we take this seriously and want to be part of the solution and not the problem.

Jack & Sandi

 

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This year on the FCMQ maps there are more "red" trails than I remember in the past.  It's almost certainly because of these reasons.  This man is PISSED, they destroyed his blueberry field (a lot of locals really depend on these to make money during the off season), no matter how deep the snow a 200 HP  sled with 3" lugs is going to dig to the bottom and destroy the plants. He can't even take his family out skiing because of the 2%'ers who ruin if for the 98%.  I doubt that anyone who does this s*&^ ever even reads this site.  They probably don't know what "passage c'est fragile" , or "Rester dans le sentiers" means.  I wonder if the offenders are from the US or Canada.  Anyone from the US who doesn't speak French could just play dumb and say they didn't "understand" the signs.  Look at trail 93, it's missing a piece that takes you way out of the way to get around.  It's apparently not because of logging so I assume it's a landowner.   I agree  100% about the long tracks destroying groomed trails.  Maybe they should just stay in the Gaspe or go out West in the Rockies.  This BS is killing it for the (*% who respect the landowners) and would NEVER intentionally disobey the trail rules.

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Jack,

100% agree about printing on a map with trail passes where it is acceptable and where it is not, great idea

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FCMQ is aware that the off trail riding is growing and they have a page with info about where you can go. Yes it sucks that some people are not following the rules. I think it's safe to say that most of the time there is a problem it is usually locals. I could be wrong. But being from the US and talking to many people about Quebec I feel like most who go there from the US are there to trail ride. And most know the rules. The only thing we can do is educate as many as we can and hope for the best.

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Some things will never change. This is one of those things. The consequences are minor if any are caught. Which they never are. So it will go on.

Outlaw tracks longer than 146” on trail, no lugs bigger than 1.6”. Just like they are tough on modified exhaust they can do same thing with this. 

By all means allow it up on Mont Valin maybe near L’etape and Chic Chocs. But everywhere else NO WAY. If caught sled impounded and (drivers liscense suspended for QC residents) penalty needs to be something that will deter this behavior. 

Personally If it were up to me public shaming would be in order and a good old fashioned flogging. 

Trails are for trail sleds. Very simple. No need to cater to these off trail guys who cannot respect private property.

 

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35 minutes ago, iceman said:

Some things will never change. This is one of those things. The consequences are minor if any are caught. Which they never are. So it will go on.

Outlaw tracks longer than 146” on trail, no lugs bigger than 1.6”. Just like they are tough on modified exhaust they can do same thing with this. 

By all means allow it up on Mont Valin maybe near L’etape and Chic Chocs. But everywhere else NO WAY. If caught sled impounded and (drivers liscense suspended for QC residents) penalty needs to be something that will deter this behavior. 

Personally If it were up to me public shaming would be in order and a good old fashioned flogging. 

Trails are for trail sleds. Very simple. No need to cater to these off trail guys who cannot respect private property.

 

I could not agree more.The consequences are no where near enough. There should also be a Pass that needs to be purchased that goes to the trail clubs that maintain the trails the off trail guys use to get to where they are going. But keep in mind just because someone is an off trail rider doesn't make them a bad guy. I myself like to ride in the deep stuff once in a while. I would like to believe most are just as respectful as most trail riders are. There are some giving each a bad name but not all!

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58 minutes ago, wulsock1 said:

FCMQ is aware that the off trail riding is growing and they have a page with info about where you can go. Yes it sucks that some people are not following the rules. I think it's safe to say that most of the time there is a problem it is usually locals. I could be wrong. But being from the US and talking to many people about Quebec I feel like most who go there from the US are there to trail ride. And most know the rules. The only thing we can do is educate as many as we can and hope for the best.

Being a local and sledding for many many years, I have always felt that the locals have the most to lose when a trail closes due to abuse by a few, while folks that trailer in will just move on when trails get shut in a given area. Despite DROIT DE PASSAGE FRAGILE signs in sensitive areas you will always find tracks of someone who can not resist tearing off the trail and riding up a hill of pristine snow on private property. It really doesn’t matter where the culprit is from, the promotion of off trail sled sales by manufacturers in areas where they don’t have room to roam is only compounding the problem. 

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What needs to done is when a trail pass is issused you have to state your track length and lug height. Then like was said out law lugs bigger that 1.6" and no more than 146" tracks on FMCQ trails.  If the clubs catch them fine them like they were caught with no trail pass. $500 might make them look for another place to ride. Anyone caught off the trail and I mean all riders should also punished. This is effecting a persons life. 

  I was at a outpost getting gas  last weekend  and four guys came in that were off trailing. Nice guys but not one  had trail pass stickers on their sleds. I looked on purpose.  They were talking about their  day and last thing was said was they were glad they could  ride the trail back to their hotel. The guide just laughed and said if they get caught they will just jump off the trail and no one could catch them. This is going to be a problem in the future. The guys I met were from Toronto but they were being guided. I blame this on the guide because he is getting paid.

  These are my opinions and only mine.

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Track length and lug depth are not the problem, disrespectful for private land or landowner wishes by 2% of the riders is our enemy. Whether is be tearing up a field or loud exhaust, the very few impact the majority of responsible riders.  

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Years ago at Relais 22 I saw an interesting concept.  Relais 22 is in the middle of nowhere.  Their pumps don't have card readers so an employee writes a slip for how much gas was purchased.  The key was, the employee checked for a valid pass before the rider was allowed gas.

No pass - no gas.  Simple and effective but it only works in remote areas.

I agree that it would be very difficult to stop someone if seen riding where they shouldn't be.  The off trail sleds will go anywhere to outrun security or Police.  Education may not be the only answer but it should be part of the solution.

Jack & Sandi

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7 hours ago, revct1 said:

Years ago at Relais 22 I saw an interesting concept.  Relais 22 is in the middle of nowhere.  Their pumps don't have card readers so an employee writes a slip for how much gas was purchased.  The key was, the employee checked for a valid pass before the rider was allowed gas.

No pass - no gas.  Simple and effective but it only works in remote areas.

I agree that it would be very difficult to stop someone if seen riding where they shouldn't be.  The off trail sleds will go anywhere to outrun security or Police.  Education may not be the only answer but it should be part of the solution.

Jack & Sandi

That would be a start Jack, actually though they were writing down the pass number at relay 22 in case you took off without paying

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22 hours ago, fredsleds said:

Jack,

100% agree about printing on a map with trail passes where it is acceptable and where it is not, great idea

I think you assume they are buying trail passes.....

Most likely locals who know how to keep away from the authorities.

GutZ

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16 hours ago, viper2 said:

That would be a start Jack, actually though they were writing down the pass number at relay 22 in case you took off without paying

That could be.  I just remember the guy at the pump checking the sticker.  But then if no sticker, what would he write down?

Jack & Sandi

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This really is becoming a big issue and the land owners (understandably) are not going to put up with it.  It will hurt the entire sport.  

We do as much of the adventure type riding as anyone, but each rider needs to know when and where it’s acceptable and to what degree it’s acceptable or it threatens this awesome sport.

As Rev indicates, more education for everyone will help. The Zecs and Crown land, unless marked otherwise, are, to the best of my knowledge, allow snowmobile activity. But this topic needs to be on the front of every conversation moving ahead.

Lets hope it can be managed before major damage gets done to the system.

 

RR

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I agree with  rr people need to be more respectful to the landowners before this gets any worse. But to ban paddle tracks makes no sense at all. I’ve seen young guys with heavy thumbs and  heavily studded tracks do more damage to the trails than a paddle track ever could. Also the guys bumping off and back onto the trails every time they can destroys the trails but that’s two different topics. Respecting landowners and how guys treat the trails. Guys that ride to fast in my opinion from what I’ve seen take every opportunity to spin their tracks in every corner that’s does a lot of damage every pile they push up makes a big bump. Let’s work on educating the riders not what they are riding!!!

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13 minutes ago, dmccrea@twcny.rr.com said:

I agree with  rr people need to be more respectful to the landowners before this gets any worse. But to ban paddle tracks makes no sense at all. I’ve seen young guys with heavy thumbs and  heavily studded tracks do more damage to the trails than a paddle track ever could. Also the guys bumping off and back onto the trails every time they can destroys the trails but that’s two different topics. Respecting landowners and how guys treat the trails. Guys that ride to fast in my opinion from what I’ve seen take every opportunity to spin their tracks in every corner that’s does a lot of damage every pile they push up makes a big bump. Let’s work on educating the riders not what they are riding!!!

Yes, It always amazes me that more people who jump on and off the trail sides don't end up tearing their trailing arms off on a branch or hitting a rock that will destroy the sled, it is a very common practice with younger riders, I seen some that ride as much off the side of the trail as on it. Thankfully 99 % are great and it is really up to those folks to start letting this crowd know where they can do that, otherwise...were going to be #@$!*&^!!

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It almost seems to me that snowmobiling is coming full circle. Before clubs and actual trail systems, in my area we used to go almost any where and had packed down rough trails amazingly long distances. Nobody cared much about whose property you passed on BUT mainly because everyone had a machine or two. Pass on my property, no problem, cause i’m Passing on yours too. A main local trail came down the lake, up my front lawn and down my driveway to get to another lake and into the village, no one asked me it just was. Not long after with the start of clubs and the promise of grooming, we were slow to get on board, why should we pay to travel on the routes we and others had established? How things changed and I wouldn’t go back but in  some ways it seems that we are back to the beginning with the industry actually producing snowmobiles that can go anywhere again and not get stuck on anything but packed/ plowed routes. Only difference is not every one owns / embrace snowmobiles and light weight and flotation has been replaced with raw power and Tracks that shovel snow. All this to say IMO, banning or limiting track length, paddle depth will only keep that segment in a Rouge state. They are not going away. Far better to encourage that segment of the sport to be part of an organized group to educate about the private land issues and buy passes for the trails if they are not now and at lease get revenue from them to help with the trails they tear up so fast. 

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Maybe BRP, Artic Cat and Polaris should be let known of what is going on. I'm not leaving out Yamaha for any reason except they don't push back country sleds like the rest. 

  If there are no trails in Quebec I'm not going back to tug hill. 

  The sales personal should tell customers about the issues that are happening. 

  Only an idea. 

 

 

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The manufacturers are well aware of these issues.  They always promote only riding where permissions have been given to the rider.  They understand their sales are at risk because of the few that don't follow the rules.

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How about asking (demanding) FCMQ, to direct the local club, where their are problems, to assist these distressed land owners by installing temporary snow fencing through these places to force sleds to stay on the right path. Caution tape won’t work, they will drive right through it. That might keep the stupid disrespectful people out. 

Another idea is a permit fee substantially higher for tracks over141 and lugs larger than 1.6 .

these people think they have a “RIGHT “ to go anywhere they want because they bought a permit. Education is not enough here, stronger fines and more enforcement will work. Instead of licensing and registration checkpoints, put the police in the problem area.

Just my opinion,

Snappy Hank

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Snappy your missing the point here..  Anyone can go off trail on land and disregard landowners wishes it’s not just paddle tracks!!! It’s the guys driving the sleds. Any sled. Trail distruction is much worse by guys with lots of studs and big horsepower spinning constantly pileing mounds of snow up in the trails than any paddle track can ever do. Up north Parant and that area (remote areas)many of the locals have paddle tracks so they can get around its their means of transportation you going to penalize all those locals. How do you think that will go over??? It’s a common sense thing.  The guys causing the problems are the same guys riding way to fast blowing corners spinning their tracks at every opportunity. It’s not paddle tracks. 

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