Scranton1 Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Considering these two models as the next purchase and have been scouring all the forums to gather as much information as possible. Can anyone comment on the floatation of either of these machines? 95 percent of our riding is trail riding, with that being said, it is no fun being on a shortie in a remote location of Quebec with 18 inches of snow on the trail, getting buried mile after mile, burning fuel like crazy, and the thoughts of uncertainty about getting stuck in the bush overnight. Very experienced riders with 25000 plus miles in the province but have been in that situation multiple times. I've personally experienced the 1200 being anchors in the deep stuff. If it wasn't for Phil's 800 renegade we would have never made it to the gathering 2 yrs ago and my shortie TNT outperformed the 1200's. Fuel mileage and top speed on the ACE Renegade? ( If I wasn't going long track the ACE TNT would be my choice right now ) 20 mpg, plenty of snot up to 80 mph, top speed 90+, and a light feel with smaller doo chassis than 1200. U can never have enough gas or range in Quebec doing 2000 mile loops! The sprocket teeth ratios are quite different on the ACE shortie vs the ACE renegade per doo's website 24 49 renegade 24 45 shortie TNT The majority of posts I've viewed put the renegade in the 15 - 17 mpg with top speed of 70 or so... Would this be the reason in addition to the additional weight and friction? Mpg of viper 137 inch track? 35 more hp than the ACE and 30+ mph on top end and only a 2 mpg difference vs ACe Renegade? I owned a 09 Nytro and loved the motor 15 mpg but the handling was poor enough to quickly put me back on a doo. I want to get off my 09 TNT (399 lbs) with the old 600 motor but haven't yet found a compelling candidate! Until now? These two are very very compelling for my type of riding. (A new crate 600 motor is 1500 bucks and the motor is bulletproof! Brand new sled $6500 msrp!) Anyone with any insight is greatly appreciated! Please convince me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNH Hockey Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 This is coming from a Yamaha guy who currently owns a 12 Vector with 10,000 miles on it. I am 47 and have rode in PQ since I was 18. Buy the Skidoo. For trail riding I don't know how you beat a 900 Rene. The Skidoo will get 20 mpg and the Viper maybe, maybe 15. Much easier to carry fuel and luggage on the Skidoo. Way more dealer support with a Skidoo in Quebec. I have a buddy who put 100 miles on a 900 Expedition and loved the sled. I would not look past this sled. The Viper will beat it on top end, but who cares. The Viper is a Cat with Yamaha clutches. I would stay away from it. I like the Vector, Like the Apex, especially the XTX. I would not touch a Viper with a ten foot pole. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailblazer Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Pull your motor and rebuild it, change all drivetrain bearings and rear suspension bearings, rebuild both clutches and you should be good to go for under 3 gs New sled.....I am a Yammy guy and given that I feel the Viper IMO is too early to invest in....too much change! 900 Ace....BRP has had good results with the 1200 and the 600 I would feel confident with their 900 just watch out for the clutching there has been issues in the past with their 4 stroke models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Pull your motor and rebuild it, change all drivetrain bearings and rear suspension bearings, rebuild both clutches and you should be good to go for under 3 gs New sled.....I am a Yammy guy and given that I feel the Viper IMO is too early to invest in....too much change! 900 Ace....BRP has had good results with the 1200 and the 600 I would feel confident with their 900 just watch out for the clutching there has been issues in the past with their 4 stroke models. Trailblazer That does make sense and I am usually over the top with preventative maintaence! Looking for a change......although I love my sled $$$ not an issue but don't want to be wasteful or stick my head in the snow when I'm broke down 100 miles from chibougamou! Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 This is coming from a Yamaha guy who currently owns a 12 Vector with 10,000 miles on it. I am 47 and have rode in PQ since I was 18. Buy the Skidoo. For trail riding I don't know how you beat a 900 Rene. The Skidoo will get 20 mpg and the Viper maybe, maybe 15. Much easier to carry fuel and luggage on the Skidoo. Way more dealer support with a Skidoo in Quebec. I have a buddy who put 100 miles on a 900 Expedition and loved the sled. I would not look past this sled. The Viper will beat it on top end, but who cares. The Viper is a Cat with Yamaha clutches. I would stay away from it. I like the Vector, Like the Apex, especially the XTX. I would not touch a Viper with a ten foot pole. Just my 2 cents. If the 900 ACE Renegade gets 20 mpg on groomed trails that's the sled.....Just need someone to tell me that with 100 percent confidence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 And tell me it floats like a butterfly as well! Per doo's website the weight difference on the renegade ACE 900 and the 1200 is 30 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
182ray Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Ski Doo !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrGutz Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 MikeRider is running the 900 and can give you good feedback. GutZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikerider Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Don't know if I can help. I had a Cat '12 ProCross and didn't really like it; low hard seat ('14 has softer taller seat), many recalls, reverse didn't work, handling just fair, rear suspension stiff & harsh. One of my concerns of the new Viper is some models are supposedly using Cat's ACT shocks. Cat used these for a couple years in the late '90's and early 2000's. They were junk, had two sleds with them and nothing but grief. They are made by RydeFX. Maybe they are better now??? I only have 100 miles on my TNT ACE 9, and those miles were done on narrow curvy central Maine trails so hard to get a feel for the sled, but I did get well over 20 mpg that day and quick spirts the sled would get up to 85 mph no problem and was still climbing. I thought acceleration felt like a 600 two stroke. Headed for Canada this weekend so will be able to give a better report on the sled by mid week. My only concern is if the 900 is comfortable at 75 mph down long rail beds and doesn't feel taxed at those speeds. I'll update my findings. One concern about the Viper is I heard they actually only hold 8 gallons of gas, not 10 as advertised, not sure if that is true or just an internet rumor. Also be careful, as Cat has been using really cheap bearings in their sleds in recent years. Hope that helps. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Don't know if I can help. I had a Cat '12 ProCross and didn't really like it; low hard seat ('14 has softer taller seat), many recalls, reverse didn't work, handling just fair, rear suspension stiff & harsh. One of my concerns of the new Viper is some models are supposedly using Cat's ACT shocks. Cat used these for a couple years in the late '90's and early 2000's. They were junk, had two sleds with them and nothing but grief. They are made by RydeFX. Maybe they are better now???I only have 100 miles on my TNT ACE 9, and those miles were done on narrow curvy central Maine trails so hard to get a feel for the sled, but I did get well over 20 mpg that day and quick spirts the sled would get up to 85 mph no problem and was still climbing. I thought acceleration felt like a 600 two stroke.Headed for Canada this weekend so will be able to give a better report on the sled by mid week. My only concern is ifthe 900 is comfortable at 75 mph down long rail beds and doesn't feel taxed at those speeds. I'll update my findings.One concern about the Viper is I heard they actually only hold 8 gallons of gas, not 10 as advertised, not sure if that is true or just an internet rumor. Also be careful, as Cat has been using really cheap bearings in their sleds in recent years.Hope that helps.Mike Tx mike Please keep us posted as you rack up the miles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
600IQHO Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) I would like to help as I have purchase 2 900 Gades. I have 0 miles on both so I am hoping for the best. I am reading reports of 17 to 22 with the 900 Gades? Seems to be the MPG's are increasing during and after break in. If this is true and most seem to love that engine so far. For trail riding it seems to be a nearly perfect engine. I can report back on this much better in 2 weeks which probably wont help you right now. Good luck on what ever you choose! Edited January 3, 2014 by 600IQHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viper2 Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Is there something wrong with the motor in your current sled? Why are you looking to pull it in favor of a crate motor? Not really sure of your definition of bulletproof but you may want to take into consideration how much you are going to spend to maintain a sled before you worry too much about a few mpg difference. Hard to beat a Yamaha motor for durability and longevity just sold a 1998 Vmax 700 triple 2 stroke today with 14,754 miles on it today and the motor has never been apart for anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 I would like to help as I have purchase 2 900 Gades. I have 0 miles on both so I am hoping for the best. I am reading reports of 17 to 22 with the 900 Gades? Seems to be the MPG's are increasing during and after break in. If this is true and most seem to love that engine so far. For trail riding it seems to be a nearly perfect engine. I can report back on this much better in 2 weeks which probably wont help you right now. Good luck on what ever you choose! Any insight is appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpysanta Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 DEPENDABLE IS SPELLED..... YAMAHA ...BUT THE HAVE OTHER FAULTS .....GOOD ON GAS BUT SOME MODELS HAVE A SMALL GAS TANK. XTX MODELS ROCK WAY BETTER THAN SHORTY'S ..TIP UP RAILS HELP IT HANDLE WAY BETTER ..POWER STEERING SEEMS LIKE A GOOD IDEA BETTER THAN A 3 POSITION KEY CODE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
600IQHO Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Any insight is appreciated! Just got 8" of snow here last night. I will try to get out a little on Saturday. It wont be trail riding but it will give me a little bit of a feel for the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpysanta Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 going to have to change your handle there 600...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackstraw Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 Go on Dootalk in the XR forum and do a search on the Viper. That will give you an idea of the quality of that sled. I put Simmons Gen III's on the 1200 and a skid plate. certainly helps to get the nose up on top of the powder. Those 5.7's are useless in deep snow for any flotation. Bigger paddles on the track would help also, I'd do a 1.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Go on Dootalk in the XR forum and do a search on the Viper. That will give you an idea of the quality of that sled. I put Simmons Gen III's on the 1200 and a skid plate. certainly helps to get the nose up on top of the powder. Those 5.7's are useless in deep snow for any flotation. Bigger paddles on the track would help also, I'd do a 1.5 Jack straw Glad the ski's and skid make a significant difference... Nothing wrong with the 1200 if it floats! Could u get a 1.5 underneath that thing? Any other input on 1200... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Is there something wrong with the motor in your current sled? Why are you looking to pull it in favor of a crate motor? Not really sure of your definition of bulletproof but you may want to take into consideration how much you are going to spend to maintain a sled before you worry too much about a few mpg difference. Hard to beat a Yamaha motor for durability and longevity just sold a 1998 Vmax 700 triple 2 stroke today with 14,754 miles on it today and the motor has never been apart for anything 10000 plus on all of our 600 ( old motor ) non etec and never a problem. Not looking at mpg for a cost savings.... Looking at range per tank plus three gallon caddy.... 270 plus range with ACE covers a tremendous amount of geography without worrying about fuel! I am NOT BRAND LOYAL.... Started on cats , doo, tried Yamaha and back to doo. Loved my Nytro Motor... Awesome! The sled didn't handle and every tom, dick, and Harry had a solution that I didn't find to make any difference. I also feel if you spend 12000 plus on a machine you shouldn't have to spend a dime on it to be rideable... Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikerider Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 If you are used to the Doo 600 carb motor, just be warned they made some changes to that motor in 2012. After having one in '08', '10, & '11, I bought a '13. The '13's power was disappointing in the upper midrange of the power band compared to the others. Also the gas mileage was down. The '13 kind of was irritating to drive, felt rich and non responsive after 60 mph or so. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmk Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 given the type of riding you do the renegade would be all the sled you will ever need. I wouldn't do the 1200 myself weight off trail more work throwing the sled around. The ace 900 sounds like a very good motor would be a good fit for you id say.. You could also change tracks on your sled to 1.5 or 1.3/4 and motor. That lug on a short track will do a very good job. Used to do that back in the late 80's before I went to long tracks full time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scranton1 Posted January 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 If you are used to the Doo 600 carb motor, just be warned they made some changes to that motor in 2012. After having one in '08', '10, & '11, I bought a '13.The '13's power was disappointing in the upper midrange of the power band compared to the others. Also the gas mileagewas down. The '13 kind of was irritating to drive, felt rich and non responsive after 60 mph or so.mike It's funny that they would take a motor thats well over a decade old and f%^*%£¥£ it up! Probably did it on purpose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
600IQHO Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 We had a chance to try our 900's today. We just flew around some farm fields here in Berks county. So far I like like it, smooth & QUIET! The only time you here the engine is at idle. Had it up to 65 and in sport mode it seems to get there pretty quick. Can't wait to hit the trails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viper2 Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 10000 plus on all of our 600 ( old motor ) non etec and never a problem. Not looking at mpg for a cost savings.... Looking at range per tank plus three gallon caddy.... 270 plus range with ACE covers a tremendous amount of geography without worrying about fuel! I am NOT BRAND LOYAL.... Started on cats , doo, tried Yamaha and back to doo. Loved my Nytro Motor... Awesome! The sled didn't handle and every tom, dick, and Harry had a solution that I didn't find to make any difference. I also feel if you spend 12000 plus on a machine you shouldn't have to spend a dime on it to be rideable... Just my 2 cents. Is 10,000 miles alot for them? I agree on not wanting to spend any more money once I drop the big amount heck I don't even want to spring for the jerry can LOL. Good luck in your search do you need to get it for this year if not maybe try some test rides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikerider Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Arrived RDL today, out riding by noon. Put 110 miles on the TNT ACE 9. So far I love this sled more than any I've owned or ridden. The RMotion is the real deal. The motor pulls hard but may lack top end for some of you. Got down on RR bed trail 35, couple new inches of snow overnight and with sleds going over it, top couple inches of trail was soft. Sled could just barely touch 85 mph, but cruised effortlessly at 70. It has to be the quietest sled ever built. Very, very happy so far, but again, decide if you need more top end. Heard the Renegade has less top end. Acceleration on my sled is outstanding. Got in at dusk so could not really tell if headlight is good or not. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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